Discussion:
ATWT - Lily/Holden Background Question
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Seminole
2007-10-24 23:41:21 UTC
Permalink
I've been wondering...
Lily was Emma's granddaughter, wasn't she?
Then how can she have married Emma's son Holden?

Does anyone remember that far back?

Seminole
DonnaB shallotpeel
2007-10-24 23:47:52 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:41:21 -0000 in Msg.#
Post by Seminole
I've been wondering...
Lily was Emma's granddaughter, wasn't she?
Then how can she have married Emma's son Holden?
Does anyone remember that far back?
Iva was adopted.
--
DonnaB shallotpeel

"Children are a wonderful gift ... They have an extraordinary capacity to
see into the heart of things and to expose sham and humbug for what they
are." - Desmond Tutu (1931-) THE WORDS OF DESMOND TUTU [1989]
Cory
2007-10-25 00:08:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by DonnaB shallotpeel
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:41:21 -0000 in Msg.#
Post by Seminole
I've been wondering...
Lily was Emma's granddaughter, wasn't she?
Then how can she have married Emma's son Holden?
Does anyone remember that far back?
Iva was adopted.
FTR, for those newer viewers who may be unfamiliar with the Snyder
family tree, Iva is Emma's daughter and Lily's birth mother. Yes, Iva
was adopted. Lily was adopted by Lucinda, who IIRC, couldn't have
children (but we were introduced to Sierra at some point during all of
this saga re: Lily, so go figure that one out).

This question takes me back to the barn and Rod Landry and Iva standing
there with a pitchfork screaming at Rod, "She's your daughter!", after
Rod tried to, I believe, force himself on Lily (who did Rod get married
to, of the Snyder women, later on as time passed? Was it Meg??). I saw
this moment happen in real time, didn't have any spoiler warning, and
just sat there, mouth agape as I tried to wrap my brain around the fact
that Iva was Lily's birth mother and not Lucinda. I'd have to check
"The Book" to see when exactly this took place, but I am pretty sure it
was sometime after 1985-86.

I think that this moment in ATWT still ranks as one of the most classic
moments for this soap, ever.

--- Cory
Rthrquiet
2007-10-25 00:14:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cory
Post by Cory
This question takes me back to the barn and Rod Landry and Iva standing
there with a pitchfork screaming at Rod, "She's your daughter!", after
Rod tried to, I believe, force himself on Lily
No. Iva assumed (with some validity based on her own experience with
Josh) that he was trying to rape Lily, but actually Josh was trying to
get her calmed down; Lily was hysterical over something or somebody,
but I don't remember what.
Post by Cory
(who did Rod get married
to, of the Snyder women, later on as time passed? Was it Meg??).
Yes, Rod/Josh married Meg, much later.

Michael
koko
2007-10-25 00:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Sierra was Lucinda bio daughter when she was married to the ruler of
Monteago and she stayed with her Dad until later on when she came to live
with Lucinda. Lucy did adopt another child from Monteago but we don't hear
from her. Can't remember her name but she was younger that Lily and Sierra.
KC
2007-10-25 02:31:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rthrquiet
Post by Cory
Post by Cory
This question takes me back to the barn and Rod Landry and Iva standing
there with a pitchfork screaming at Rod, "She's your daughter!", after
Rod tried to, I believe, force himself on Lily
No. Iva assumed (with some validity based on her own experience with
Josh) that he was trying to rape Lily, but actually Josh was trying to
get her calmed down; Lily was hysterical over something or somebody,
but I don't remember what.
A plane that Craig and Betsey were on crashed. Lily was hysterical
thinking that Craig (they were very close then) was dead and rushed to
the barn for solace. Josh was working and she told him what happened.
He was hysterical thinking that Betsey might be dead and had Lily by
the arms, pleading, "What about Betsey?!!" and Lily kept crying, "I
don't know!!" Iva comes in to the barn and hears all the commotion and
had sort of a Nam flashback, understandably.

KC
KC
2007-10-25 02:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cory
Post by DonnaB shallotpeel
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:41:21 -0000 in Msg.#
Post by Seminole
I've been wondering...
Lily was Emma's granddaughter, wasn't she?
Then how can she have married Emma's son Holden?
Does anyone remember that far back?
Iva was adopted.
FTR, for those newer viewers who may be unfamiliar with the Snyder
family tree, Iva is Emma's daughter and Lily's birth mother. Yes, Iva
was adopted. Lily was adopted by Lucinda, who IIRC, couldn't have
children (but we were introduced to Sierra at some point during all of
this saga re: Lily, so go figure that one out).
Lucinda conceived Sierra with Jacobo Esteban (probably spelled some of
that wrong), but was married to Martin Guest when they adopted Lily.
Martin was the fertility problem, not Lucinda.
Post by Cory
This question takes me back to the barn and Rod Landry and Iva standing
there with a pitchfork screaming at Rod, "She's your daughter!", after
Rod tried to, I believe, force himself on Lily (who did Rod get married
to, of the Snyder women, later on as time passed? Was it Meg??). I saw
this moment happen in real time, didn't have any spoiler warning, and
just sat there, mouth agape as I tried to wrap my brain around the fact
that Iva was Lily's birth mother and not Lucinda. I'd have to check
"The Book" to see when exactly this took place, but I am pretty sure it
was sometime after 1985-86.
June, 1987

As Michael pointed out, Josh wasn't trying to rape Lily, Iva just
jumped to that conclusion after hearing Lily sobbing in the barn and
Josh's voice. But, viewers already knew that Iva was Lily's mother,
the big reveal her was that Josh was the father and Lily found out
both items at once. Iva had previously revealed to Lucinda that she
was Lily's mother and agreed to keep quiet. The question then was, who
was the father and the reveals came like gunfire: it was Josh, it was
rape, Josh was Iva's cousin, no, not by blood, since Iva was adopted,
too!, who were Iva's biological parents, why hadn't Emma told Iva or
the other kids, boom, boom, boom.

Josh later got involved with Betsy Stewart (then played by Lindsay
Frost), then married Meg and moved to Waco, TX for many years.
Post by Cory
I think that this moment in ATWT still ranks as one of the most classic
moments for this soap, ever.
--- Cory
THere's a whole series of clips on the story on YouTube, titled "ATWT
Lily learns she was adopted" but it starts with the scene you
describe, when it really should have started with the day prior to
that, so that you could see the wind up.

Another great series of clips is "ATWT Lily's First Time" which was
Oct or Nov of 1987, of course, with Dusty, but it includes some
arguments between Lily and Holden that lead to their breakup.

A new one I have to check out is "ATWT James Kidnaps Lily" which also
took place in 1987. Busy girl!

KC
koko
2007-10-25 00:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Lily is Iva Snyder daughter who was adopted by the Snyders. Lucinda adopted
Lily and raised her then Iva came back and she found out Iva was her Mom.
She is no relation to the Snyders.
Post by Seminole
I've been wondering...
Lily was Emma's granddaughter, wasn't she?
Then how can she have married Emma's son Holden?
Does anyone remember that far back?
Seminole
Barbara Wolfe
2007-10-25 03:06:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by koko
Lily is Iva Snyder daughter who was adopted by the Snyders. Lucinda adopted
Lily and raised her then Iva came back and she found out Iva was her Mom.
She is no relation to the Snyders.
I still think that legally this marriage should never have been
allowed to take place.

Barbara
--
The troublesome ones in a family are usually either the wits
or the idiots.
-- George Eliot
DonnaB shallotpeel
2007-10-25 15:33:57 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Thu, 25 Oct 2007 03:06:48 GMT in Msg.#
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by koko
Lily is Iva Snyder daughter who was adopted by the Snyders. Lucinda adopted
Lily and raised her then Iva came back and she found out Iva was her Mom.
She is no relation to the Snyders.
I still think that legally this marriage should never have been
allowed to take place.
Why?!!!
--
DonnaB shallotpeel

"A person is a person because he recognizes others as persons." - Desmond
Tutu (1931-) address at his enthronement as Anglican archbishop of Cape
Town, September 7, 1986
Barbara Wolfe
2007-10-26 02:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by DonnaB shallotpeel
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Thu, 25 Oct 2007 03:06:48 GMT in Msg.#
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by koko
Lily is Iva Snyder daughter who was adopted by the Snyders. Lucinda adopted
Lily and raised her then Iva came back and she found out Iva was her Mom.
She is no relation to the Snyders.
I still think that legally this marriage should never have been
allowed to take place.
Why?!!!
Because she in effect married her uncle.

Barbara

The troublesome ones in a family are usually either the wits
or the idiots.
-- George Eliot
record hunter
2007-10-26 02:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by DonnaB shallotpeel
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Thu, 25 Oct 2007 03:06:48 GMT in Msg.#
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by koko
Lily is Iva Snyder daughter who was adopted by the Snyders. Lucinda adopted
Lily and raised her then Iva came back and she found out Iva was her Mom.
She is no relation to the Snyders.
I still think that legally this marriage should never have been
allowed to take place.
Why?!!!
Because she in effect married her uncle.
Which marriage?
Barbara Wolfe
2007-10-27 03:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by record hunter
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by DonnaB shallotpeel
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Thu, 25 Oct 2007 03:06:48 GMT in Msg.#
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by koko
Lily is Iva Snyder daughter who was adopted by the Snyders. Lucinda adopted
Lily and raised her then Iva came back and she found out Iva was her Mom.
She is no relation to the Snyders.
I still think that legally this marriage should never have been
allowed to take place.
Why?!!!
Because she in effect married her uncle.
Which marriage?
Lily and Holden's. Her birth mother is her sister-in-law,
her husband is her uncle and her grandmother is also
her children's grandmother, so I guess she's her own
cousin. ick ick ick.

Barbara
--
The troublesome ones in a family are usually either the wits
or the idiots.
-- George Eliot
DonnaB shallotpeel
2007-10-26 02:50:09 UTC
Permalink
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Fri, 26 Oct 2007 02:35:14 GMT in Msg.#
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by DonnaB shallotpeel
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Thu, 25 Oct 2007 03:06:48 GMT in Msg.#
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by koko
Lily is Iva Snyder daughter who was adopted by the Snyders. Lucinda adopted
Lily and raised her then Iva came back and she found out Iva was her Mom.
She is no relation to the Snyders.
I still think that legally this marriage should never have been
allowed to take place.
Why?!!!
Because she in effect married her uncle.
They have no legal blood relationship. There are/were no bases for any
objections to even be raised to their marriage!
--
DonnaB shallotpeel

"A computer terminal is not some clunky old television with a typewriter in
front of it. It is an interface where the mind and body can connect with the
universe and move bits of it about." - Douglas Adams [3/11/52-5/11/01,
tHHGttG]
KC
2007-10-26 03:32:54 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:50:09 -0400, DonnaB shallotpeel
Post by DonnaB shallotpeel
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Fri, 26 Oct 2007 02:35:14 GMT in Msg.#
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by DonnaB shallotpeel
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Thu, 25 Oct 2007 03:06:48 GMT in Msg.#
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by koko
Lily is Iva Snyder daughter who was adopted by the Snyders. Lucinda adopted
Lily and raised her then Iva came back and she found out Iva was her Mom.
She is no relation to the Snyders.
I still think that legally this marriage should never have been
allowed to take place.
Why?!!!
Because she in effect married her uncle.
They have no legal blood relationship. There are/were no bases for any
objections to even be raised to their marriage!
And not only do they have no blood relationship, they never even
thought they did. I mean, if Iva had kept baby Lily (and Rose) and
raised her, Lily would have grown up seeing Holden as an uncle, so
finding out they Iva was adopted and, thus, Holden was not a blood
relative wouldn't have changed the familial tie they had.

So, yeah, either way you look at it, they were fair game for each
other. I always thought it was nice that Lily found love with a guy
whose family she adored so much.

Oh, and Lily was involved with Caleb, too!

Oh, oh, and what about Angel, who slept with Caleb, married Holden and
Seth (those sexy Snyder boys, hmm?). This marrying of all the men in a
family is prominent on soaps (rare in real families), but I never hear
too much about how icky that could be. It's usually only when the
woman marries the father of her contemporaries, or the son of one,
that people start feeling the squick.

KC
Barbara Wolfe
2007-10-27 03:04:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by DonnaB shallotpeel
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Fri, 26 Oct 2007 02:35:14 GMT in Msg.#
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by DonnaB shallotpeel
In rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs on Thu, 25 Oct 2007 03:06:48 GMT in Msg.#
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Post by koko
Lily is Iva Snyder daughter who was adopted by the Snyders. Lucinda adopted
Lily and raised her then Iva came back and she found out Iva was her Mom.
She is no relation to the Snyders.
I still think that legally this marriage should never have been
allowed to take place.
Why?!!!
Because she in effect married her uncle.
They have no legal blood relationship. There are/were no bases for any
objections to even be raised to their marriage!
I know all that, but the mere fact that her mother-in-law is
her grandmother is flat out icky to me.

Barbara
--
The troublesome ones in a family are usually either the wits
or the idiots.
-- George Eliot
Rthrquiet
2007-10-28 21:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barbara Wolfe
I know all that, but the mere fact that her mother-in-law is
her grandmother is flat out icky to me.
I was about to ask a question about Emma and Luke the other day and
then realized I didn't know how to describe their relationship, since
he's simultaneously her grandson and her great-grandson, and I began
to feel a little queasy.

Michael
Cory
2007-10-30 00:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rthrquiet
Post by Barbara Wolfe
I know all that, but the mere fact that her mother-in-law is
her grandmother is flat out icky to me.
I was about to ask a question about Emma and Luke the other day and
then realized I didn't know how to describe their relationship, since
he's simultaneously her grandson and her great-grandson, and I began
to feel a little queasy.
Michael
Sorry, but I can't help this... that deserves a LOL moment.

;-)

--- Cory
Barbara Wolfe
2007-10-30 01:01:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rthrquiet
Post by Barbara Wolfe
I know all that, but the mere fact that her mother-in-law is
her grandmother is flat out icky to me.
I was about to ask a question about Emma and Luke the other day and
then realized I didn't know how to describe their relationship, since
he's simultaneously her grandson and her great-grandson, and I began
to feel a little queasy.
Thanks. I've felt alone on this subject for years. I knew
there had to be others out there as well, but few seem
to want to own up to it. <g>

Barbara
--
The troublesome ones in a family are usually either the wits
or the idiots.
-- George Eliot
Rthrquiet
2007-10-30 23:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barbara Wolfe
Thanks. I've felt alone on this subject for years. I knew
there had to be others out there as well, but few seem
to want to own up to it. <g>
You know, Barbara, I went years and never thought about it. I bought
all of that crazy stuff during the Marland era and well past it--Lily
falling in love with her (not biological) uncle; Meg falling in love
with her sister's rapist, who just happened to be her (not biological)
cousin, Angel scoring the trifecta of being involved with *all three*
Snyder brothers (and now Craig scoring a similar trifecta with the
Snyder girls). I think that shows just how good Marland was.

But lately, yes, ewwww, it's all started bothering me, I'll confess
it. Maybe it has to do with how unsavory the show has become in
general. I can't claim any long-term willingness to admit having been
icked-out (if in fact I was in the old days and just in denial about
it; maybe I was actually not noticing).

Michael

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